Author Topic: Development back on :)  (Read 587 times)

patson

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
    • View Profile
Development back on :)
« on: October 08, 2018, 10:47:02 pm »
Added 2 changes:
1. Load Factor in route list
2. Changes in service investment/quality calculation:
 1. Flight distance is now added to the formula.
 2. Class configuration no longer affects calculation
 3. It is now easier to raise service quality in low level and harder in the top tier

In general, airlines with more long hauls flights and mostly business/first class seats will need higher service investment, on the other hand airlines with mostly short flights and economy class would see a service quality boost for the existing investment level.

The impact should be rather subtle for most airlines

Stoich

  • Guest
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 11:47:14 pm »
Added 2 changes:
1. Load Factor in route list
2. Changes in service investment/quality calculation:
 1. Flight distance is now added to the formula.
 2. Class configuration no longer affects calculation
 3. It is now easier to raise service quality in low level and harder in the top tier

In general, airlines with more long hauls flights and mostly business/first class seats will need higher service investment, on the other hand airlines with mostly short flights and economy class would see a service quality boost for the existing investment level.

The impact should be rather subtle for most airlines

Uhm, not sure what you mean by subtle but for me it is more then 50% increase in cost which is not subtle at all and basically would eat almost all my profits after plane depreciation. In all honesty that is an entirely needless change and it will make service investment not a factor at best as everyone will eventually stay in a small range and have the same service levels and at worst will just brake the game as it is basically eating up any profit that can be generated.


patson

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 11:59:28 pm »
Added 2 changes:
1. Load Factor in route list
2. Changes in service investment/quality calculation:
 1. Flight distance is now added to the formula.
 2. Class configuration no longer affects calculation
 3. It is now easier to raise service quality in low level and harder in the top tier

In general, airlines with more long hauls flights and mostly business/first class seats will need higher service investment, on the other hand airlines with mostly short flights and economy class would see a service quality boost for the existing investment level.

The impact should be rather subtle for most airlines

Uhm, not sure what you mean by subtle but for me it is more then 50% increase in cost which is not subtle at all and basically would eat almost all my profits after plane depreciation. In all honesty that is an entirely needless change and it will make service investment not a factor at best as everyone will eventually stay in a small range and have the same service levels and at worst will just brake the game as it is basically eating up any profit that can be generated.

Sorry about the pain that caused  :-\

I made this change as I found the old calculation heavily benefits airlines with only long hauls and business/first class.

To make a (overly) simplified example.

Airline A operates 1 very short route (< 1000 km) route with 1 airplane at 20 times a week frequency, each flight carries 100 PAX.
Airline B operates 1 very long route (> 10000 km) route with 1 airplane at twice a week, each flight carries 100 PAX

In the old calculation, Airline A would be badly disadvantaged cause in order to achieve the same service level as airline B, airline would need to invest 10 times more in the funding (total capacity 2000 vs 200). While if we look at the crew and airplane involved (which the service funding is like training for staff and research of inflight enhancement), both airline should use the same # of crew (since it's the same one  airplane, operate at max capacity/frequency)

In the new calculation, both airline A and B would require the same funding to reach similar service level

The above example also apply to airline with very low volume due to high percentage of business/first class seats (hence lower capacity).

I am so sorry about the impact to the game, but it seems the advantage for long haul only airline is too big that i would need to address

I did have several test run to assess impact to various airlines and most airlines (with operate a good mix of short and long haul flight) should have +/- reputation of 5 points with current investment level

Hope this explains the change  :) I am open to made more tweaks if appropriate

Stoich

  • Guest
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 12:45:08 am »
The reason for the "big" long haul routes is not that they're overly profitable, but the mechanics of the game which limits intercontinental routes, thus funneling all traffic into few routes. This drives the prices up on those routes and makes them more profitable. The profit though is misleading as it is a result of a lot of other routes to generate the passenger flow.

This change is not going to change that, everyone will continue to build their networks the same way, however it will punish those that are able to do it more efficiently...




vani56

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 12:53:46 am »
So you basically ruined the game for airlines with high quality service..... I needed 90 mil to fund and stay around 90%, now I need 160 mil. It is just ridiculous. I'm sorry but I keep thinking this change was made to hurt your competitors.

bluesky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 04:18:22 am »
I focus heavily in domestic service, and I agree completely with the above explanation by patson.

It's a really simple question.
Why my 1h 300km 2000pax be as expensive (quality wise) as a 13h 14000km 2000pax route?

BTW
this change was made to hurt your competitors.

He just said in his alliance thread that he had to close a base in Milan and Heathrow.

Having 63 domestic, 21 regional and 10 intercontinental, my service went from 45 to 56.
How was your route disposition to have such a negative impact for you?

bluesky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 04:24:54 am »
Ah, I don't know if that's intended, but the load factor sorting is being calculated with the current plane assigned, not the last report.
For example, I lowered my capacity and the load factor went up, before the change actually happening in the following week.

vani56

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 04:41:02 am »
My Profits come from long haul. I have 150 a380s flying mostly internationally. I have a lot of connecting passengers. Short haul flights provide feed not money for me.
The new system caters to short haul now but completely screws long haul operators. I think there should be balance. And this is not balanced as it is. I hope for a change.
My service quality was 92 before with 90 mil. investment, now its 83 with 120 mil and keeps dropping. My Profits went down significantly.
This kind of drastic change should not be introduced overnight. I had some a380s on order and now I don't know what to do with them because I'm out of slots, because when the service drops the airport loyalty drops too. Month and a half ago I started with 5 EMB120s and I didn't find any problem with domestic service.
2 days ago he wrote how he is losing money and now he introduces this. You can't just make an update that caters to players with specific strategy. Again, there should be some balance.
P.S. Maybe he should make it cheaper for quality of short haul and keep the settings for long haul as before.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 04:44:12 am by vani56 »

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 04:56:42 am »
In general I think this is a good change* but in the current environment loading up costs and taking away slots is probably extremely disruptive.

*although there were some underexplored (and, mostly unrealized) benefits of the old model, namely that it technically created an incentive for a diversity of airlines focused on different types of routes.

AlpineUngulate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 08:36:29 am »
I don't have strong opinions on how things "should" be done, and I don't think changes to the economics should be viewed as nefarious or anything.

I just have an observation: what we're seeing now is a very mature world in which profits have been competed down very far, to single digit operating margins for a lot of people. Any change is likely to throw half the airlines off pretty badly, because they were built to eke out narrow areas of advantage in a competitive world.

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 09:47:58 am »
I agree that either a reboot, or a substantial expansion of some sort (if only an expansion of the population and economy!) is necesssary.

ALEX is an extremely robust, diversified, healthy airline that was hurt modestly by this but is still (I think) one of the most profitable airlines around, but it's also very mature with nowhere to expand. And to a large degree it essentially chokes off smaller airlines by occupying profitable space.
Agree Agree x 3 View List

AlpineUngulate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 10:15:45 am »
The broad context here is that the world essentially doesn't have any real sources of productivity growth or demand growth. The only things players can build are bases and aircraft, which have ongoing costs and compete for revenue. We've accurately modeled what happens to businesses in a world of ~zero growth and close-to-perfect competition: eventually profits get competed down and the businesses get sad and frustrated and some go to negative profits.

I've got like 170 billion in assets to sell off, increase margins, adjust and survive. I'm sure that most TripleA airlines have similar strengths that will let them survive this change. But it's saturated competition more than code changes that are generating the feeling of "the game is out to get me."
Agree Agree x 2 View List

AlpineUngulate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 10:23:04 am »
Some thoughts on how to make things less cut-throat and zero-sum than they are right now:

(a) occasional resets of the game world aren't unreasonable
(b) giving individual airlines some reward for resetting would also scale back supply
(c) letting airlines invest in airport improvements of some kind--even or perhaps especially if they have broad spillover effects and allow both the investing airline and others to expand
(d) if you commit to a regular reset-the-game-world schedule you could have new technologies introduced over time giving people more positive developments to adapt to.
(e) maybe "Space and Beyond" is a good idea after all
Agree Agree x 6 View List

Stoich

  • Guest
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 02:44:05 pm »
Ok, this is going to be a bit lenghty, because I want to explain a few things, then I'll shut up.

1. What vani56 was referring to was a comment left in the TripleA alliance thread by Paxton under a comment by me explaining my strategy and the benefits and results from it. While I don't believe Paxton was targeting me or anyone as a player with this change, he was targeting the strategy as such, hence why some people are being hit harder then others.

2. In general vani56 employed similar strategy as me, mostly coming to the same conclusions as me independently and maybe a small influence from what I posted in the alliance thread in the last few days.

3. To be clear, I don't have a beef over this, my annoyance is more connected with the fact that this chance is diminishing from the quality of the game rather then contributing to it and to a degree in the way it was implemented on a whim, which I hope Paxton does not take this personally. I understand very well the need to re-balance the game or any game for that matter over time, however such re-balancing has to be done with small incremental changes which have a limited effect and spread over time.

4. Unfortunately the change is brought on by a false assumption that my strategy is based on a "skewered" network towards long flights where I have benefited from an advantage for long flights built into the mechanics of the game. Pretty much all mechanics in the game have a bias towards short haul flights. Plane costs, fuel usage, price to space ratio (though there is a miscalculation here, but I'll explain below), initial investment and so on. Specifically ROI on long range routes is much lower then short or medium routes.

There is a couple of mechanics though which were implemented for that purpose that in reality cause the exact opposite and they're limit on basses and routes, especially intercontinental routes.

What in essence happens is, because each airline can have only a very small and limited amount of intercontinental routes and because if you want to grow beyond a certain point you need to utilize those to the maximum as well as the very low margins for them overall, everyone is looking to setup routes with no competition. On the other hand because they're so few in relation to other routes, there is a high demand for them and low supply, so in the absence of competition the prices are driven towards their high end thus making them highly profitable. There is a catch however, one needs to be able to deliver the sufficient traffic to them to realize that profit.

This situation is exasperated further by the requirement of rep points for base expansion and in the way they can be squired with new or younger airlines basically having little ability to do that and thus being even further limited.

I took advantage of a couple of things to escape the trap and manage to grow quite quickly over the past 5 weeks to the point of being on the verge of challenging the top 3 airlines in the game. First that was identifying the key bases that were underutilized or not at all and developing those into a network that has an advantage over most. Those are SFO, Newark, Narita and Amsterdam. The second reason is that I applied and was accepted in the #1 alliance relatively early in the development of my airline and the 20 rep bonus speeded up my growth. Most importantly however and the main reason for my quick growth was the introduction of the used plane market which is somewhat flawed. I tried to point out some of the flaws in it from the star, in any case it has allowed me to expand operations much faster and with a much quicker capital turnover.

Never the less while my profitability was good and I reached 155 mil in cash flow weekly, which is about 90 mil profit weekly (before plane replacement costs), it was still no more then 6-7% profit margin overall, which while good is by no means huge. In additional the profit margin has been going down and not up as I've expanded. Having the 4 most profitable routes was and is misleading as my network was and is built to generate trafic which then generates the profit at the intercontinental (connecting) routes while the rest are not very profitable. Simply put I was taking low margins or even losses on many routes specifically to feed the long haul ones where I would generate the profit for all of them together.

Thew last reason is strategic, it was me gaming the mechanics of the game by only developing some of my basses and using the rest to move and increase my route limit. Simply put I built basses to maximize my regional routes, then filled those and then switched to basses to maximize my domestic route numbers and filled those. The game is setup that once you build a route even if your limit goes lower than the routes you have you keep it. In this way I have built more routes with 11 basses than are possible with the limitations. In this way I've sacrificed the ability to be able to be flexible with my routes in the future until I manage to expand the amount of basses I can have.

I've explained all this to illustrate that it is not the result of short vs long routes, but a convergence of a lot of the mechanics in the game all limiting in one or another way what players can do in the game.

Now, because my profetional background is research (social and market researh to be precise) I let all the changes take effect without me changing anything since yesterday to get a general idea of the effect they have had on my airline and see if any of my assumptions have any merrit. This is the result in general terms:

Service quality (150 mil investment) down 23% (from 100 to 77.07 after 2% increase in funding)... to recover 100 rating I would need to increase investment to ~230 mil
Passenger totals down ~10% (from about 720K to ~650K)
Slots lost  ~ 280-290 (about 50 each on my main 5 basses and 30 on my HQ plus some smaller numbers on another 3 basses)
Cash flow  - 44%  (from 155 mil to 87 mil) this is before plane depreciation and plane replacement costs (my plane depreciation is at 63 mil weekly)
profit - 375% ( from 92 mil to 24 mil, before plane replacement costs but after plane depreciation)
turnover ~ - 30% ( from about 950 mil to 710 mil, I don't remember the exact number for turnover but it inching towards 1 bil so I'm taking 950 as probably closest to the actual number)

As I keep planes on 60% auto-renew and I have 173 A380s, 71 Boeing 767s, 97 Boeing 787s and 129 A318s, my replacement costs every 14 years or 748 weeks is 22 887.2 mil or 30.6 mil per week, currently I'm running at 6 mil per week loss as compared to 62 mil per week profit before. The 62 mil profit represented a profit margin of 6.52% and currently - 0.8%


Finally to the effect of the changes:

They will not help short haul routes at all and most likely will hurt them in the long term when the system has adjusted to the changes introduced. The reason is simple it makes airlines that focus more on short haul flights less competitive and turns them into feeder airlines exclusively. This will happen because if they run a higher service quality to be competitive against other airlines with long haul routes they will be unable to setup and run the long haul routes to take advantage of the passenger volumes as their costs will spike up very quickly and force them to lower service quality and loose their advantage on short haul flights, cause them to loose slots if they lower costs as well which means huge investment into higher bases and higher costs for basses. On the other hand long haul flight airlines once they adapt to the changes, lower investment will get even less competition and be able to charge the same or even higher prices while lowering costs for service. The reason is simple the bottleneck in intercontinental routes remains and it is due to the mechanics of the game though not the service quality one.

Longer term this means that all airlines will be forced to run both short haul and long haul routes and will be forced into a small range of service quality level variation as going lower or higher very quickly becomes unprofitable. In essence this change lowers the impact of service quality on the game greatly and lowers the ability of players to compete on the basis of differentiation in tactics.

There are many ways to increase competition in the game, but it seems my ideas do not generate much interest so I won't bother you with those anymore. So I'll take a more leisurely approach to the game moving forward or take some time off until there is a reason to play it again. I just hope resets is not what follows as a solution, not really interested in doing the same thing in the same cities over and over even if every few months.

Good luck,
Agree Agree x 1 View List

vani56

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 02:57:04 pm »
You did a great job summing it up, Thanks!