Author Topic: Development back on :)  (Read 585 times)

Stoich

  • Guest
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2018, 02:58:54 pm »


As I keep planes on 60% auto-renew and I have 173 A380s, 71 Boeing 767s, 97 Boeing 787s and 129 A318s, my replacement costs every 14 years or 748 weeks is 22 887.2 mil or 30.6 mil per week, currently I'm running at 6 mil per week loss as compared to 62 mil per week profit before. The 62 mil profit represented a profit margin of 6.52% and currently - 0.8%




This part is a little wrong as 14 years is 728 weeks not 748 weeks, just noticed the error after posting so the real numbers are:

22 887.2 mil total replacement costs or 31.4 mil weekly, which is a 6.9 mil loss right now as compared to a 61 mil profit before. The 61 mil was a 6.42% profit margin before, compared to - 0.97% now.

The differences are not big but to be accurate.

t1853

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2018, 03:53:06 pm »
I'll just add that any hope of minor to intermediate restructuring is now out of the question due to the massive route deficits I assume most of the other large airlines have now. Cutting anything but an inordinate amount of routes won't even come close to enough to getting enough slots back to set up different routes and more base maintenance investment by further upgrading bases (and sinking further into a cash burn) is not the answer. Airlines are locked into routes that may be unprofitable and the competitive nature of the game drives the prices down to the point of being unprofitable for everyone. Assuming all else equal, such a game without room for growth grinds to a standstill.

I agree that that an expansion of some sort is needed otherwise, like it was previously mentioned, it starts to become a zero sum game. The suggestion of having reset bonuses that stick with your airline after willingly declaring bankruptcy to free up space seems like it'd at least be a decent idea to help alleviate this in the meanwhile.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 03:57:34 pm by t1853 »

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2018, 04:04:49 pm »
Stoich, there are some correct things but some incorrect things in your post, that I'd like to address.

4. Unfortunately the change is brought on by a false assumption that my strategy is based on a "skewered" network towards long flights where I have benefited from an advantage for long flights built into the mechanics of the game. Pretty much all mechanics in the game have a bias towards short haul flights. Plane costs, fuel usage, price to space ratio (though there is a miscalculation here, but I'll explain below), initial investment and so on. Specifically ROI on long range routes is much lower then short or medium routes.

There is a couple of mechanics though which were implemented for that purpose that in reality cause the exact opposite and they're limit on basses and routes, especially intercontinental routes.

What in essence happens is, because each airline can have only a very small and limited amount of intercontinental routes and because if you want to grow beyond a certain point you need to utilize those to the maximum as well as the very low margins for them overall, everyone is looking to setup routes with no competition. On the other hand because they're so few in relation to other routes, there is a high demand for them and low supply, so in the absence of competition the prices are driven towards their high end thus making them highly profitable. There is a catch however, one needs to be able to deliver the sufficient traffic to them to realize that profit.

It's a little more complicated than this.

First, it's not just the supply of intercontinental flights, but also the demand function for them. Passengers demanding IC flights have a much higher willingness-to-pay in the demand model.

Second, the need for feeder routes is not as large as you suggest. The preference for connecting within-network (versus between airlines) is roughly $25 off the price of the ticket. If you are running IC routes, this is a small fraction of your margin and you can be totally viable feeding off of other airlines' connecting flights. In addition, the major IC routes have a large amount of viable passenger volume just for the direct flight.

This situation is exasperated further by the requirement of rep points for base expansion and in the way they can be squired with new or younger airlines basically having little ability to do that and thus being even further limited.

Quote
I took advantage of a couple of things to escape the trap and manage to grow quite quickly over the past 5 weeks to the point of being on the verge of challenging the top 3 airlines in the game. First that was identifying the key bases that were underutilized or not at all and developing those into a network that has an advantage over most. Those are SFO, Newark, Narita and Amsterdam. The second reason is that I applied and was accepted in the #1 alliance relatively early in the development of my airline and the 20 rep bonus speeded up my growth. Most importantly however and the main reason for my quick growth was the introduction of the used plane market which is somewhat flawed. I tried to point out some of the flaws in it from the star, in any case it has allowed me to expand operations much faster and with a much quicker capital turnover.

The first advantage is really, really huge and can't be overstated enough. ALEX had similar profitability numbers at its peak before its markets became saturated (and before it deliberately sacrificed some profitability for certain stretch goals in terms of reputation).

Quote
Never the less while my profitability was good and I reached 155 mil in cash flow weekly, which is about 90 mil profit weekly (before plane replacement costs), it was still no more then 6-7% profit margin overall, which while good is by no means huge. In additional the profit margin has been going down and not up as I've expanded. Having the 4 most profitable routes was and is misleading as my network was and is built to generate trafic which then generates the profit at the intercontinental (connecting) routes while the rest are not very profitable. Simply put I was taking low margins or even losses on many routes specifically to feed the long haul ones where I would generate the profit for all of them together.

The reason the profitable routes list is misleading (and why I've never bothered to really compete on it) is actually because of service funding.

Under the old formula, if you were running 100% service quality then you were effectively subtracting $200 extra per ticket from your profits on each route - which on really big routes is, obviously, enormous. But this is applied on the income statement, not per-route, and so high-service-quality airlines have wildly overstated profitability on their individual routes.

Mentally, when evaluating routes I would always subtract the effective per-passenger ticket price from the nominal route profit in order to determine whether to cut the route for being unprofitable. When I was running a service quality of around 65, this was about $85 per ticket.

What this actually meant was that a lot of people were running domestic routes that looked a little profitable but were actually horrific money sinks. If each passenger is costing you $200 in service quality, then a $350 ticket for a shortish domestic route is mostly absorbed by that overhead. It did create a real structural advantage to the big IC routes, well above and beyond the route limit.

This also combines with another fact of the game, which is that a route quality over, IIRC, 50-60 does nothing for your pricing power on domestic routes. Up until that point each point of quality gives you the ability to add an extra 0.5% to the ticket price.

Quote
They will not help short haul routes at all and most likely will hurt them in the long term when the system has adjusted to the changes introduced. The reason is simple it makes airlines that focus more on short haul flights less competitive and turns them into feeder airlines exclusively. This will happen because if they run a higher service quality to be competitive against other airlines with long haul routes they will be unable to setup and run the long haul routes to take advantage of the passenger volumes as their costs will spike up very quickly and force them to lower service quality and loose their advantage on short haul flights, cause them to loose slots if they lower costs as well which means huge investment into higher bases and higher costs for basses. On the other hand long haul flight airlines once they adapt to the changes, lower investment will get even less competition and be able to charge the same or even higher prices while lowering costs for service. The reason is simple the bottleneck in intercontinental routes remains and it is due to the mechanics of the game though not the service quality one.

I do not think short haul routes are hurt by this; I think they gain a significant advantage. However, the problem with loyalty and slots remains pretty serious and I think that needs a fundamental rework of its own, in part because of the way condition effects it. To be honest, at this point I think that the loyalty effect should be removed and bases should give a flat %.

vani56

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2018, 04:08:14 pm »
Yeah but imagine if a big airline resets.  it's not gonna be long until it becomes big again, if not bigger this time with the added bonuses.

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2018, 04:13:59 pm »
Actually it will take a while, because the environment is much more difficult for new airlines to rapidly scale up.

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2018, 04:32:32 pm »
Oh, one other demand-side factor I forgot with IC routes is: charms are a huge deal. IC routes can get really large direct demand because they let you connect to the most-charmed cities.

t1853

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2018, 06:23:23 pm »
Yeah but imagine if a big airline resets.  it's not gonna be long until it becomes big again, if not bigger this time with the added bonuses.


You're assuming that space just stays open for growth. With big airlines resetting, the average amount of passengers served decreases compared to not resetting. It also gives smaller airlines that started later a chance to grow more with some breathing room while the big airline is growing again. The purpose of this is to encourage a dynamic game style that doesn't have airlines just grow and sit at the top once they hit their growth caps.

Either way, I think we may need a solution to the growth issue sooner rather than later and something like this seems the easiest to implement within a short duration for Patson as opposed to a whole new expansion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 06:34:12 pm by t1853 »

alex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2018, 06:47:52 pm »
OK, I went and looked at the formula. You can now get a service quality of 40 for $30 for every 4000 passenger-kilometers, and - this is the key here - the exponent is now 2.5 rather than 2. That is to say, in order to double your service quality, you need to multiply your funding by 5.66.
Like Like x 1 View List

vani56

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2018, 12:34:02 am »
If the new changes are here to stay, a new slot system is needed - one that is not dependable on service quality.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

patson

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2018, 12:45:22 am »
I wish to once again thank all for the input and suggestions whether positive and negative - I am glad and thankful for such an active community which constantly give me suggestions and feedback of the game  :D

And I wish to apologize for making such an abrupt change w/o first seeking inputs from the community (and this is not the first time I screwed things up, the base/hq vs route limit change also messed some players up).

Regardless of whether the change is good for the game, I need to recognize that this game is no longer the sandbox beta phase game months ago, now there are players who spend hours and weeks to build their airlines and changes like this should be introduced more cautiously.

Moving forward, I want to ensure players that major game play changes like this would NOT be introduced over night. Instead, I would at least start a thread to explain the change and gather input and at the minimum give players enough time to adjust before changes take effect.

Now specifically for this change, I do think the drastic reduction of reputation for certain airlines could indeed be frustrating. The last release actually contains 2 changes (as Alex pointed out):

1. Service investment/quality uses passenger miles instead of straight passenger capacity for calculation, and also the passenger miles ignore class configuration (so it's based on the airplane model's base capacity of full economy)
2. It is now easier to raise service level in lower level (as the base factor was adjusted) but harder to reach top level (it's in power of 2.5 instead of power of 2), so to double your service level it would require 6.25 times of investment instead of 4

I plan on keeping the first one in some form - still open to some minor adjustment - but I am convinced that service investment requirement should mostly based on the fleet and crew size - which is reflected better by passenger miles than plain capacity (w/o consideration of flight distance)

And for the 2nd point, i am open to revert the power from 2.5 back to 2 (with some minor adjustment of the base factor)

Any comments, ideas, concerns??  :)


And thanks all for the ideas of next step to make the game interesting for mature players, after doing some other minor enhancements (patreon privileges etc). I will start working on things that make the game more interesting especially for established players  ;D
Love Love x 1 View List

t1853

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2018, 01:17:21 am »
I would say that I think this new scaling is better. The point of a scale like reputation is to have something for the passengers to compare against and for airlines to distinguish themselves. If it's easy to max out at 100, then it's not very useful as a metric. That being said, I think maybe we could keep the current scaling and get a boost to the number of slots that a certain service level provides so that airlines get the same number of slots as before, with the same service investment, even with the new lower service level. Even if we go back to the old service calculation entirely without the new exponential, I feel that if airlines are brushing up against the cap, then we should have a higher cap or it should be harder to reach.
Like Like x 2 View List

Morb

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Development back on :)
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2018, 04:11:19 pm »
So I just read that the new way to calculate things benefits smaller airlines, which sounds good because I just had to go bankrupt with my airline after a 4 week vacation where I just let my airline run without any adjustments (Flinke Flüge is my airline).

The thing is I really like to start over, because before I was at a point where there wasn't much to do and with a fresh airline the game is way more exciting in my opionion. Exploring new markets and so on. Espacially when you have a airline which once had more reputation you really can't do much. When you have a base which is not very benifitable you can't really delete it, because you also don't have the reputation to build a new one. Also you got a lot more routes than the limit, so you really want do maximize the profit of the existing international routes, which is not that easy.

Essentially what I want to say is, that I find a more engaging to build my airline from zero agian, the existing loyality also helps a lot with faster progress than with a totally new airline. I think some resets here and then of the world wouldn't be bad.

Btw I am quite drunk right now and I hope what I just wrote makes some sense :D
Funny Funny x 3 View List